On Luzhkov 17

Should Mr. Luzhkov be allowed to gain residence permit in Latvia? First thing in the morning I got a phone call from a friend who was interested in which side I was on. Well, I think Mr. Luzhkov should not be denied entry just on the grounds of him saying Latvia is a "fascist hell", "Cambodia", and what not. Essentially, I think there are two positions here.

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One position is to say, look, we're not happy with what you've been saying about our country (or how you banned our šproti) but, as long as you commit to abiding by our laws, you're welcome to come and live in what you said was a "fascist Cambodia". This would be a position of confidence, strength, and maturity.

Another position would be to be spiteful and vindictive about the past sins. Epitomizing this position is Mrs. Murniece, the minister of the interior, who black-listed Mr. Luzhkov on the grounds that "[Luzhkov] cannot enter Latvia because he does not love this country". And what purpose does this serve? Revenge for "Cambodia"? Such a position is best described as childish.

Unless, of course, there is credible evidence that Mr. Luzhkov truly plans to bomb Milda, start a drug cartel, and generally not behave as a law-abiding resident. Mrs. Murniece says there is such evidence but, of course, she would not tell us the nature of it because, allegedly, it's a state secret. However, given that the minister's rhetoric focused on Mr. Luzhkov "love" for Latvia, I wonder what is the credibility of earlier claims that such evidence exists.

PS Sadly, this comes from a minister that belongs to a party that says it is committed to the "rule of law". How can one possibly have the rule of law if people in power can put you on a 'black list' based on whether they think your 'love' of a country is sufficient?

PPS However, credit should be given to Mr Pabriks, minister of defense, and same party as Mrs Murniece, who has taken the opposing view, arguing that Mr. Luzhkov should be allowed entry.

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Komentāri (17) secība: augoša / dilstoša

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styxnet 20.01.2011 10:09
Pasaules prese raksta,ka Lužkovs ir saistīts ar organizēto noziedzību un tāpēc no viņa jāturas tālāk.Bet pieņemt viņa naudu-tas taču ir tik normāli!

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V Dombrovsky -> Ahmeds 20.01.2011 09:30
Re 'tolerance'. There is one very good saying out there which goes something like: "if you're talking to an idiot, that means he is doing the same thing". So this makes me wonder whether responding to Luzhkov's "Cambodias" by "we-won't-let-you-in-cause-you-don't-love-us" amounts to something similar.

If Mrs Murniece said "we have evidence that you've been involved in lots of shady deals and you're generally up to no good, so we won't let you in. Period." - Fine! I would have never bothered blogging about this.

By the way, your position also seems perfectly rational to me.

The "'cause you don't love us" rhetoric is something I find hard to understand.

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Andris_2 20.01.2011 08:28
Kalvis to Ahmeds 20.01.2011 01:31 ... So, if somebody is clever enough....-------------------------Ja kāds nebūtu tik pelavmaisdauzīts pa ausekļaino pauri, tad būtu sapratis neslēptu izsmieklu Ahmeda jautātajā :))))))

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Kalvis to Ahmeds 20.01.2011 01:31
>>> Hau lārdž šud bī zat investment?
====
Only 50 to 100 thousand lats, if it is Real Estate - 50000 LVL outside big cities or "larger Riga"; and 100 thousand lats in more densely populated places. (Since some of these are "insider deals", the price can be much higher than the actual price for the real estate; the only gain by the state is a tax on Real Estate transaction (about 2% of the total sum of the deal).

So, if somebody is clever enough, it is possible to arrange residency permit in Latvia for about 2000 Latvian lats.

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Ahmeds 19.01.2011 22:39
_Generally, I think we're largely talking about something called tolerance._
==========
After hiz spitting in ōr feis vī (latvieši) šud sei: "Dobro požalovaķ, dorogoj!"
Zat iz not a tolereišan bat a lak of self respekt. Zat vai zere šud not bī anī "Dobro požalovaķ, dorogoj!", bat a: "Gūd, dogī. Vī dū not laik jū, bat jū hav a lot of manī. Kam viz jōr manī, spend it, bat šat jōr maus of."

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Ahmeds 19.01.2011 22:28
_1) Likums, kas ļauj apmainīt uzturēšanās atļauju ES un NATO dalībvalstī pret smieklīgi mazu investīciju, manuprāt, ir nejēdzīgs;_
======
Hau lārdž šud bī zat investment?

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anonims 19.01.2011 21:43
Vispar jau uz arzemniekiem nekads “spirit of law” neattiecas neviena valsti. Par arzemniekiem valsts var subjektivi izlemt, ko grib un ko negrib laist ieksha. Bez paskaidrojumiem. Daudzi to ir izbaudijushi uz ASV robezas (va cik "immature"!). Shaja gadijuma, lemums bija pamatots visdrizak ar to, ka Latvijai nav galigi nepiecieshamas problemas delj karteja kriminala “disidenta”. Kapec iisti mums butu jaboja attiecibas ar Krieviju tada meesla delj? Publiski pateiktais ir domajams, vienkarshi iegansts.

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Alejandro>V Dombrovsky 19.01.2011 21:18
Es nemūžam nebalsotu par Visu Latvijai! tipa partiju, kas atbalsta cittautiešu deportāciju vai kaut vai sola "veicināt repatriāciju". Taču ir starpība starp ļaudīm, kas Latvijā dzimuši vai ieceļojuši laikā, kad šeit bija cita valsts, un svešiniekiem, kas vēlas ierasties "no malas". Pirmajiem kritēriji vienmēr būs zemāki nekā otrajiem, uz pilsonību taču pašsaprotami attiecas tas pats.

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V Dombrovsky 19.01.2011 17:32
Re rule of law. I think what happened might be consistent with the letter of the rule of law (ie Mrs Murniece was within her rights to deny entry), but not with its spirit, i.e. that everyone should be equal under the law.

Generally, I think we're largely talking about something called tolerance. For example, if you're a Latvian and someone refuses to talk to you in Latvian, you would understandably get pissed off, but would this make you vote for a party that wants this guy (and some others) deported? Moreover, I think tolerance is correlated with maturity. Say, there was a time when I was not a very tolerant person.

However, I think there has been substantial progress re tolerance over the last couple of years. Reaction to this blog is the best proof of this :) I had a (near) bet with my colleague that this post would generate lots of comments, with people taking sides and writing all kind of nasty things to each other (and to me). That's what would have certainly happened couple of years ago. It hasn't happened now. Good!

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Diesel - Autoram 19.01.2011 16:04
Tas, ja valsts neatļauj visai drazai tajā iebraukt, iegūt uzturēšanās atļaujas un dzīvot, neliecina par nenobriedušu pozīciju, bērnišķīgumu vai ko tamlīdzīgu. Ir jādomā arī par valsts iedzīvotājiem - piemēram, man un vēl daudziem nebūt nepatiktu sēdēt ar Lužkovu pie blakus galdiņa vai klausīties viņa uz ielas uzdotu jautājumu (krieviski, jo bauru un aborigēnu latviešu valodu viņš tā arī neiemācītos).

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Arzemnieks > Alejandro 19.01.2011 10:56
No one I have spoken to about Murniece has anything good to say about her. Hence my words. You can be as pedantic about my choice of words as you wish.

And I didn't say that it is petulant to object to hateful words about Latvia. I said that it "looks" petulant to outsiders. Perhaps that doesn't bother you, but in my opinion it's better to be cool. Especially since his words represents only his opinion in this case.

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Boldrix 19.01.2011 10:26
Rules that allow "buy" residence permit is basicaly wrong. Why they are not intended on having educated and respectable imigrants and residents? If such principle would existed, than none of this discussion wouldn't metter. Now this is about selling the residence permits, so we shold sell it or change the law.

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Alejandro>Arzemnieks 19.01.2011 09:58
Interesanti dzirdēt nosaucam Mūrnieci par "thoroughly discredited politician" neilgi pēc tam, kad viņa ieguvusi trešo lielāko plusu skaitu apvienības - vēlēšanu uzvarētājas sarakstā (Rīgas apgabalā), kas turklāt ir personiskais rekords. Jā, bija arī daudz mīnusu, taču plusu bija vairāk. "Dažādi vērtēta" - piekrītu. "Thoroughly discredited" - wishful thinking...

Un kopš kura laika klaja naidīguma pret Latvijas valsti nosodījums ir "petulance" izpausme?

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Arzemnieks 19.01.2011 09:46
I kind of see Vjacheslav’s point of view, but it shouldn't be such a surprise that a thoroughly discredited politician, such as Murniece, has made the LR's government look petulant by giving an emotional reaction to this situation. And to use Vjacheslav’s words, it would be really nice to see the LR respond with "confidence, strength and maturity". However, I think it's a case of making the right decision for the wrong reasons.

Luzhkov is a rogue, and so is his wife. They don't have criminal records but it's blindingly obvious that both are thoroughly corrupt and that they have made money from dishonest & criminal means. Therefore it's perfectly reasonable to refuse Luzhkov residence.

I would also add that since Luzhkov now seems to be an enemy of Russia, to give him residence would only bring heat on Latvia, Berezovsky-style! Latvia certainly doesn't need new hassle from Russia, so why give a home to someone who could end up getting the Khodorkovsky treatment sometime soon?

I'm not a constitutional or legal expert, so I don't know whether my comments are legally sound. Just an opinion...

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Alejandro 19.01.2011 09:34
Nezinu, par kādu Latvijas valsts pašpārliecinātību, stiprumu un briedumu liecinātu gatavība par kapeikām atvērt robežu korumpētam un autoritāram nekrietnelim, kas nekad nav slēpis savu naidu pret mūsu valsti. Labi, viņš gānīja Latviju, jo "tā vajadzēja", ņemot vērā attiecīgā brīža "politisko konjunktūru" Krievijas iekšienē. Nu "konjunktūra" mainījusies un nekrietnelis, kritis bijušo saimnieku nežēlastībā un aiz bailēm nosvīdis, sūta pieprasījumus visām valstīm pēc kārtas (Austrija, Apvienotā Karaliste utt.), bet, šķiet, nekur viņu negaida. Vai mums tikai tāpēc, ka vecais BEIDZOT, savtīgu interešu vadīts, vairs regulāri neapmelo Latviju, aiz sajūsmas jāsāk plaukšķināt rociņas, kā to gatavi darīt pabriki un seski? Tas liecina par briedumu?

Par likumu. 1) Likums, kas ļauj apmainīt uzturēšanās atļauju ES un NATO dalībvalstī pret smieklīgi mazu investīciju, manuprāt, ir nejēdzīgs; Vienotība to arī neatbalstīja. 2) Nekāds likums šoreiz nav pārkāpts - iekšlietu ministram ir tiesības tā darīt, noteiktas arī tajā pašā Imigrācijas likumā.

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Kalvis 19.01.2011 05:26
>>> And what purpose does this serve? Revenge for "Cambodia"? Such a position is best described as childish. Unless, of course, there is credible evidence that Mr. Luzhkov truly plans to bomb Milda, start a drug cartel, and generally not behave as a law-abiding resident. Mrs. Murniece says there is such evidence but, of course, she would not tell us the nature of it because, allegedly, it's a state secret.
======

If Interior Ministry blacklists somebody, they need not provide any explanations. I deem it childish (from Vjačeslavs Dombrovskis) to start even discussing this. Luzhkov is not an EU citizen, there is a visa regime - are there any further questions?

Some years ago Latvian tennis player Ernests Gulbis was denied entry to the USA - is there a need to have a big fuss about it? Certainly, parents of Mr.Gulbis are rich (and Mr.Luzhkov is even richer), but do these people really need VIP treatment by foreign powers just because of their deep pockets? ;))

Vjačeslavs Dombrovskis usually is quite democratic - why is he so keen about providing residency permit to Mr.Luzhkov (while any other Russian citizen has no guarantees about this either)? Are there any reasons that would make Mr.Luzhkov's presence in Latvia especially desirable?

Quite frankly, he and his wife have had more than their fair share of shady business deals. Isn't this a sufficient reason?

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Ahmeds 18.01.2011 23:11
Lai nāk, bet ar noteikumu, ka nodarbosies ar biznesu un nevis politiku. Un ja kāds Krievijā atkal sūdzas par LR fašismu, tad var pateikt, ka tie ir tukši meli, skat, pat izsviestais Lužkovs izvēlējās dzīvot Latvijā.

Lidostā var uzstādīt plakātu: "Latvieti nepadodies! Neatstāj Latviju Lužkovam!"

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